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December 3, 2021 Women in Digital

Introducing the 2021 Executive Leader of the Year, powered by Avanade, Tracy Whitelaw!

Tracy Whitelaw won this award alongside Professor Mary Foley AM.

Tracy Whitelaw is the Chief Digital Officer at Local Government Association of Queensland (LGAQ), leading the digital transformation and data maturity of 77 Queensland councils to help the councils better serve their communities. Under her leadership, LGAQ are setting up the LGAQ Innovation Lab, powered by Telstra, and in conjunction with Google, Facebook, local startups and universities.

The judges were particularly impressed with Tracy’s use of technology to serve the community and drive innovation across local government.

We were thrilled to talk to our 2021 Executive of the Year about her winning entry, career and thoughts on diversity in digital.

Congratulations Tracy! You have no doubt had an impressive career so far, but tell us, who is Tracy the person?

Oh this is a great question! I am not sure I’m that much different from anyone else. I’m a wife, mother, nonna, daughter, self-professed geek, nerd, gamer, lover of learning and gadget fan to name but a few parts of me. I’m also a Scozzie – Scottish Australian – having come here in 2007 and proudly calling QLD home.

What is something that not many people know about you?

A lot of people don’t realise I’ve been with my wife for 23 years, married for 3 of those and that I’m a nonna to an 8 year old and a 6 year old, Jaxon and Aria who are the absolute light of my life. When people find out they usually say “you’re way too young to be a nonna!”! But I am, and that’s a story for another time!

Welcome to WID Awards Alumni! We want to know… what does winning this award mean to you?

I am so honoured to have won this award, it was completely unexpected for me. It means a lot because I’ve seen the ripple effect that it’s had on my friends, family and professional network. My family have been so proud and so excited to celebrate the win with me and my friends and team at work have gone all out to congratulate me and continue to remind me of the great achievement. Similarly, I have had so many people in my network reach out and I hope that they can see that it’s possible for them to win something so amazing too.

It is commonly recognised that there are fewer female leaders in digital and technology. How did you end up working in this industry?

I feel like I accidently got into it! I had a keen interest in digital communications in my undergrad degree and I’ve always been a bit of a digi-nerd since I was a kid, where I always had the latest computer or gaming device. When I moved to Australia I took a job as a content writer for a startup company who created AI chat bots (back in 2007!). In that role I quickly evolved into their Chief Knowledge Engineer and we created chatbots for companies like NASA, AMP, NAB and more. From there I was all in on digital solutions and digital communications and I combined both working as one of the first Social Media Specialists in local government for Brisbane City Council in 2010. After that, my career really just continued to evolve across the digital ecosystem and I’ve been focused on getting to a Chief Digital Officer role which I achieved in 2020.

We were inspired by your remarkable journey and evident admiration you have from your team. In a bite-sized summary, what does leadership mean to you?

Leadership is an honour, not a right. For me it’s about trusting your team to do the job they were hired to do. My role is really setting the vision and helping us get where we’re going. It’s about supporting them when they need it and getting the heck out of their way to let them shine. I think alongside trust, the biggest part of leadership is listening. I learn as much if not more from my team than they learn from me I’m sure. The trick is to hear them and action things where you can, it’s important to show you’re supporting them and always be there to get in the ring with them when they need you to. Roll up your sleeves and show up for them like they do for you.

The pandemic has been a challenging time for many leaders. How have you managed to keep your team engaged through COVID?

I am a big fan of ongoing communication with my teams whether that’s face to face or online. I have regular one on ones, team meetings and daily chats. We continued this through COVID, by ensuring that we stayed engaged online by having regular meetings, social events like trivia, coffees and more. We are a team that talks a lot, so staying engaged during COVID was an extension of what we’d normally do, but with a little more check-in time to ensure people weren’t feeling isolated or struggling.

What is one thing you wish someone told you about what a career in leadership is like?

I wish someone had told me that it’s okay to not always know what you’re doing or whether the decision you’re making is going to turn out positively. It’s hard, but being in a leadership role means people need you to sometimes make the hard calls and you can only do what you believe is right, with the knowledge you have available to you at the time.

What do you believe is the importance of industry awards such as the Women in Digital Awards?

It is important to continue to showcase the amazing work women are doing in this space because it does continue to be dominated by men. I think that seeing so many amazing women being nominated or winning is inspirational to other women who work in the digital field. Also, I think having the opportunity to showcase the work you’re doing on a national stage is wonderful. I’ve had so many people across Australia (and the US) reach out to me to congratulate me, so getting to put the work that local government in QLD are doing in digital under the limelight like it has, has been extremely important.

Who is your professional inspiration?

I’m a big fan of Gloria Steinem because I love that she led the way for the feminist movement and still continues to passionately advocate for that. I like that she carved a path for women to have a seat at the table, to fight for equality and that she embraced diversity at a time when many didn’t. She fought to have women of colour and lesbians considered as a key part of the women’s equality movement. I am inspired that she recognised diversity brings strength and is something that should be the minimum we’re willing to accept when it comes to our professional environment.

What’s your most recommended business or leadership resource?

I love reading academic journals and books. I’m a big fan of Brene Brown when it comes to leadership because I feel like I can connect with her empathetic and vulnerable leadership style. I like academic journals because I’m a bit of a learning nerd and like to study, so they work well for me. Also, I really cannot underestimate the power of Linkedin which I’ve become a massive fan of over the last few years. It is great for connecting and learning more about what’s happening in your field.

In what ways do you think diversity is important to someone in a leadership role?

It is critical. Diversity in your team will bring diversity of ideas. You can’t expect to deliver a good product or service to your customers if you have people lacking diversity making the decisions. We are all different and we should embrace that. As a woman in digital and as an out lesbian for many years, I have always felt I’ve been in the ‘diverse’ category, so I always strive to ensure I bring a wide range of diversity to every team I have with the people I employ. We all deserve a seat at the table.

What do you think can be done to improve diversity in the digital industry, particularly in more leadership positions?

If you’re in a position of leadership, make the difference. Help others into the same position. The excuse ‘we couldn’t find any females/indigenous/people of colour’ during the recruitment phase is one that needs to die. Change your recruitment process. Alter your adverts. Amend your targeting. Make the commitment to actively seek diversity and every chance you get, look to create a space for someone who is different from you. That’s where the magic happens. I’m a little tired of seeing the bro club in so many digital organisations and of seeing the ‘male, pale and stale’ on executive teams or boards. Not to say they don’t have a space, but just not ALL the spaces.

What tips do you have for early-in-career professionals aspiring to achieve leadership positions one day?

I never thought I’d be a leader as I was painfully shy during University. I couldn’t even show up for group work as it would make me so anxious. I also hated public speaking. So my advice would be, don’t count yourself out. Surround yourself with people who support you and who you can learn from. Don’t see them as competition, look at what you can learn from them and offer your own skills and expertise to them. There is always something you can bring to the table, find what it is and work on improving it. Also, don’t take critique personally (which is really hard!), use it to get better.

What technology development is most exciting you at the moment?

I am the founder of a VR/AR company called HavenXR and I’m extremely excited about the potential for the metaverse in its many forms, not just the Facebook element! We’re working on pushing the limits of technology to create a fully immersive VR/AR location-based entertainment. HavenXR will entirely immerse participants in a new sensory experience where technology and content are developed from the ground up to create an exciting experience and that’s just the beginning. This is what’s really exciting to me at the moment in terms of technology development and I’m so keen to see where this goes.

Once again, congratulations Tracy Whitelaw on this accomplishment and thank you for taking the time to chat with us!

Want to get involved with the 2022 Women in Digital Awards? Register your interest here so you never miss an update!

To read more Q&A blogs from our line-up of Women in Digital Award Winners, head over to our blog and keep an eye out for more success stories on our Facebook and Instagram. You can also see our full list of winners here.


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August 4, 2019 Women in Digital

Inspired. Motivated. Focused. Three words summarising how I felt walking out after two days at the Liquid Learning, Women in ICT and Digital Leadership Summit 2019.

I’m Emma Judd, Group Marketing Manager at Place Design Group and I was the lucky winner of the Women in Digital LinkedIn competition, to attend this Summit from July 23 2019 to July 24 2019.

You may have seen, I took over the @womenindigital Instagram Stories for the duration of the conference and can view my stories on their highlights here.

While it was two days jam-packed with an amazing lineup of speakers, the below will give you a brief insight and share some knowledge nuggets and relatable advice I personally took from this event.

DAY 1: 23 July

On day one of the summit we heard from some fantastic speakers, with the line-up including:

  • Joanna Murray, Program Manager, Transformation & Innovation, Boral
  • Chris Locke, Chief Information Officer, Flight Centre
  • Deb Assheton, Expert Facilitator, The Amplify Group
  • Wendy Bryant, Chief Information Officer, Transport for NSW
  • Keli Saville, Regional Head of Data, AsiaPac, Vanguard
  • Niamh Collins, General Manager, Digital, HFC
  • Jade Carson, Director, IT Investments, Department of Education & Training
  • Kirsty McKay, Group Manager, Program Delivery & Digital Transformation, Coates Hire
  • Katie Payten, Director, Technology Assurance & Governance, Australian Securities & Investments Commission
  • Kylie McLean, Chief Digital Officer, Australia & New Zealand, IBM
  • Simon Noonan, Chief Information Officer, SportsBet

The first day, the first speaker at a conference is always exciting and generally sets the tone for what you can expect and Joanna Murray, Program Manager, Transformation & Innovation at Boral, did just that.

Setting us up for the day, Joanne asked us to reflect back to the start of our careers. Did we know what we wanted to be, and how we planned to get there? I know myself. I definitely had a plan and thought it would go a certain way but reflecting back, it was actually a very different path I’d taken. I think this is a really positive thought to reflect on, especially if you are a mentor or in a leadership role guiding your team through their career journey.

My favourite quote from Joanne’s presentation was, “Great leaders don’t think they’re great; great leaders think they’re human.”

From career reflection to career reflecting. Chris Locke, Chief Information Officer, Flight Centre, shared some great career advice which I’ve shared below:

  • Don’t be afraid of trying different things in different industries
  • Make a plan and make it happen
  • Be resilient, but patient
  • Get experience – think outside the square

This was also a lovely flow into the third speaker, Deb Assheton, Expert Facilitator, The Amplify Group, who spoke on the importance of true self-confidence, the value of vulnerability and gratitude along with self-awareness.

A nice reminder that Deb left us with was that the struggle ends where gratitude begins. Practising daily gratitude makes us 5-10% happier, and costs us nothing.

“What are you grateful for today?”

I think one of my favourite, most thought-provoking parts of the day was Wendy Bryant’s presentation. Wendy Bryant, Chief Information Officer, Transport for NSW, spoke on ‘Unconscious Bias’. To explain this, Wendy made this really relatable asking us all to discuss at our tables if there were any roles we automatically associate with a man or a woman; knowing perfectly well that both genders actually worked in that particular role. For example, when one thinks of a pilot, a doctor, a nurse or a kindergarten teacher, does one stereotype a particular gender? Needless to say, most people, by default of unconscious bias, did so.

Wendy also reflected on her time as the only woman in an IT team working with all men. She refused to be the ‘cake cutter’ at workplace celebrations, as the default was to ‘leave it to Wendy because she was the woman’. Reflecting on our own workplaces, I feel there is so much that can be consciously done or implemented to improve this default gender bias. Some ideas Wendy shared with us included:

  • Unconscious bias training
  • Focus on bias in AI – change your Siri voice to male
    • I found this topic extremely interesting. Here is an article from Google that discusses it in more detail.
  • Specific actions on diversity in hiring processes and opportunities

Post lunch, we returned to the room for a panel discussion on ‘Whether work-life balance is possible?’. And great news – it is! And here are the panellists’ top tips for making it happen:

  • Find what works for you. If you play a sport or enjoy gym as an outlet – prioritise that and make a routine that works.
  • Plan holidays in advance and stick to them – If you’re busy, it’s easy to not plan your downtime, but time with family and friends is important. Book it in. Booking it in advance gives you something to look forward to.
  • Don’t hesitate to raise your hand if you need help. A great tip. Learn to delegate and ask those around you for help when needed.
  • Work smarter using smarter working techniques. Again something to Google, but what it comes down to is the fact that we all have 24 hours in a day. Use them wisely. The one thing money can’t buy is time.
  • As women in leadership, WE need to support flexibility. This is so important. If your team comes to you wanting to discuss flexible working options, be the change. Listen to their request and see what may be possible.
  • Flexibility in the workplace. Break down the barriers and become outcomes-based. This is such a positive and practical way to frame this thought process, as just because someone sits at their desk all day, it doesn’t mean they are being any more productive than someone working from home. Change the focus to be on outcomes, not on the number of hours sitting at a desk, and encourage flexible working arrangements.

The final two presenters for day one, Kylie McLean, Chief Digital Officer, Australia & New Zealand, IBM and Simon Noonan, Chief Information Officer, SportsBet, touched on workplace culture. Kylie really drove home the message that as leaders, it’s so important to create a culture that gets your team to thrive. This was a fantastic leeway into Simon’s Case Study around transforming workplace culture, with SportsBet as an example. Honestly, SportsBet sounds like an amazing place to work with a fantastic culture. Guided by its purpose, and underpinned by its values, SportsBet doesn’t just have its values hung on the wall; they live its values, which makes all the difference.

DAY 2: 24 July

Inspired from day one, excited for day two and it did not disappoint. The fantastic line-up of speakers included:

  • Stuart Harrison, Chief Information Security Officer, Medibank
  • Megan James, Chief Executive Officer, Australian Data Centres & President, Women in IT & Communications
  • Arabella Macpherson, Founder & Communications Coach, Resonate Communications
  • Jade Carson, Director IT Investments, Department of Education & Training
  • Brendan Mills, Chief Information Officer, NIB Health Funds Limited
  • Sarah McCullough, Head of eTech Operations, Essential Energy
  • Kathryn Porter, Director, Customer Experience, Cisco
  • Joyce Harkness, Chief Information Officer, Avant Mutual Group Limited
  • Kirsten Murray, Director International, Faculty of Engineering & IT, the University of Technology Sydney
  • Catherine Nolan, Director & Principal Coach, Gender Gap Gone

Stuart Harrison, Chief Information Security Officer, Medibank, kicked-off day two proceedings by sharing some words of wisdom about realising your leadership potential. A key theme that came through reflecting on day one was to show vulnerability. As leaders, you do need to stay strong for your team, but vulnerability is not a sign of weakness, but a sign that you are human. Showing vulnerability can often lead to building rapport and relationships with your team. A really lovely reminder for all leaders.

From the importance of vulnerability in leadership to the importance of resilience as leaders. Resilience was the topic Megan James, Chief Executive Officer, Australian Data Centres & President, Women in IT & Communications, covered in her personal career journey she shared with attendees. Megan is a very inspirational woman, and since the conference, I have shared parts of her story with many of my colleagues. They say you may not remember what people say, but you will always remember how they made you feel. In this case, I remembered what Megan said because of how it made me feel and how much it resonated. If you get the opportunity to hear Megan speak, I would highly recommend you take it and hear her story first-hand. I will share my key takeaways from Megan’s presentation below and hope you take some inspiration from this too:

  • Stay in your lane and stand up for what you believe in – no matter what
  • Always hold true to your values – above all else
  • Value your soft skills – emotional intelligence
  • Be present and always show up
  • Everyone has a story – so listen
  • Engage with people – see how you get the best out of people – allow the creative opportunity
  • Don’t compromise on any of the above

As leaders and mentors, it’s always useful to have references or tools to provide the best possible guidance and advice to enable meaningful conversations with your teams and mentees. Arabella Macpherson, Founder & Communications Coach, at Resonate Communications shared with us some great tips for unleashing your power as a mentor. I’ve summarised them below:

  • Coaching
    • Ask questions
    • Make suggestions
    • Share experiences
  • Chunking
    • Use chunking to open up or delve deeper into topics
  • Matching
    • Give all of your attention
    • Match 60%: physically and vocally
    • Repeat words and phrases back to show acknowledgement

Towards the end of day two, the discussion changed to be more around the future of work. Jade Carson, Director of IT Investments, Department of Education & Training, spoke passionately on the topic of engaging and attracting future female leaders to IT roles.

Some ideas and strategies Jade touched on started right back at engaging young girls to show interest in IT. Whether that be at home, at school or at play. It’s also about attracting girls and women to a career in IT by changing the image/perception of tech, promoting meaningful careers and addressing the unconscious bias. On top of this, growing the focus on the culture around tech, closing the confidence gap through training and education and having strong female mentors or sponsors will help attract female IT talent. Jade concluded that we should keep a focus on culture being equitable and reflective of diversity. And that job design or redesign for flexibility is important. Overarching, she highlighted female role models across the IT industry is key.

Continuing the future of work discussion, panellists’ thoughts covered:

  • The importance of business and IT partnerships – with the increase in technologies in the workplace, it’s important for businesses and IT leaders to work closely for the best possible outcomes
  • Portfolio careers – showing depth and breadth of experience
  • Being location agnostic – it’s not about where you’re physically working from. With technology, you are enabled to work from anywhere. This also ties into the earlier discussion around being outcomes focused.
  • Gig Economy – presents great opportunities but also new challenges

And that’s a wrap! Catherine Nolan, Director & Principal Coach, at Gender Gap Gone, was our facilitator across the two-day summit and presented a great summary of the insights from across the event. A few practical tips she left us with include:

  • Create a Vision Board – use Pinterest or Canva to get started. If you see it, you’ll achieve it.
  • Create your 40-page resume – a dumping ground for YOU only. List examples as they happen so that when the time comes, you have the content and are ready to apply for that dream job.
  • Watch the Amy Cuddy Ted Talk – ‘Your body language may shape who you are’

There were honestly so many fantastic insights and inspirational moments over the two days. I hope this blog post shares just some of that post-summit magic with you all.

Thank you for reading.

Emma Judd

Instagram: @emajudd

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emajudd/

Do you have more insightful leadership tips? Share them in the comments below.


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November 19, 2018 Women in Digital

Describing herself as a Human API—connector of people, programs, and ecosystems—Julie Trell is the Global Head of muru-D, SheEO Australia Lead, and self-confessed technology junky. Having worked for some of the biggest technology companies across the globe, including the multi-award winning social enterprise Salesforce.org, Trell is a true leader in the digital realm, known for her solid sense of how, and when, to connect new founders to global resources.

Passionate about both education and innovation, Julie Trell was recently recognised as UQ Business School Leader of the Year at our annual Women in Digital 2018 Awards Gala. Here, we speak to Trell about the dynamic (and often addictive) nature of the digital realm, and learn more about her famously playful approach to leadership and change.

Women in Digital: What do you consider to be the positives, and potential negatives, of living in the digital era?

Julie Trell: Well, it helps with ease of life and making things easier, and more efficient. But then on the other side of things, there’s a risk of an addiction to it, and that’s not healthy. So it’s a great tool to solve problems, a tool to connect, a tool to make the world feel smaller, and the flip side is, is it compromising our humanity? And our ability to be empathetic?

WID: What are some digital tools that affect your day-to-day, and how do they maximise your productivity?

JT: We use DocuSign at muru-D daily. I recognise how  simple DocuSign is—signing documents without having to fax or mail. These are the things that simplify the work process. In addition being able to find answers to questions without having to ask someone or go to a library makes for a faster learning opportunity. I think technology allows us to become better, or more critical, thinkers, or least I hope so. It just makes work life easier, allowing you to get things done faster.

WID: Can you tell us more about your role as Global Head of muru-D?

JT: I was brought in by Annie Parker, my predecessor, mentor and now good friend. Muru-D was started to ignite the startup ecosystem in Australia five years ago, and we’ve done that. We were one of the first, there were only two or three accelerators when we started, and there are so many now, which is really exciting. Many people are getting into the startup world to become an entrepreneur, because the traditional path of going to college, graduating,getting a full time job and then staying at a corporate for twenty years has changed.

My role is to create a space where we can bridge the corporate world and the startup world, to create opportunities, to create innovation, and to create a thriving Australian economy that’s fuelled by innovation, technology, and entrepreneurs.

We’ve been around for five years, and so now it’s exciting to see what’s next. There is a lot of opportunity for change, so in terms of the future of what it looks like next, we have an exciting opportunity to redesign that.

WID: Throughout your career you’ve worked with some of the biggest technology companies in the world. What are some of the biggest changes you’ve witnessed in the way we use technology in the workplace?

JT: I was very lucky to “grow up” at Salesforce, starting there when there was only 100 people. When I first met Marc Benioff, CEO of Salesforce, the terms SaaS or Cloud Technology weren’t even invented yet. So being on the cutting edge of that development, and working with an incredibly innovative leader and company that set the bar so so high, and working with people who not only reached the bar,  but exceeded it was an amazing and incredibly valuable experience. Coming to Australia was exciting for me, because it was an opportunity to help move the bar here, and to get companies and startups and founders to achieve what is actually possible, challenging people to do that, and helping them to use the right tools, resources, smart capital and networks to do so.

WID: At our recent Women in Digital 2018 Awards Gala you were recognised as UQ Business School Leader of the Year, and were commended for your playful approach to leadership and change. Can you tell us more about your personal leadership philosophy?

JT: I think leadership is about creating a safe space to nurture a growth mindset. Also, a place to allow for failure, and embrace play, curiosity and experimentation. I tend to lead with a democratic leadership philosophy. I believe everyone should have equal say in the team, or, they should at least be heard. I value participation and collaboration within and without the team. The reason I first went into teaching was to be the catalyst for the lightbulb to go on, and I thrive to see that happen in my team, with the founders and their companies, as well as within the corporate environment of Telstra. My success is experiencing the success of others through their interaction with me, my team, and the programs we lead.

WID: You are known for your passion for education and innovation. What advice would you give women working in the industry regarding keeping up to speed with digital best practice?

JT: Speak up, speak out, and find a network. If you sometimes feel like you have dumb questions, they’re not dumb questions, because someone else has got the same questions as you have. And not being afraid to ask for help is huge. Humans in general are a lot more keen to give and to help others than we think, but that doesn’t work if no one is asking for that help. So, as women…I just think not being afraid to ask is so important.

WID: You are the current Australia Country Lead for SheEO. Can you tell us more about how this global initiative helps to transform how we finance, support and celebrate female entrepreneurs?

JT: At SheEO our goal is to get 500 women across Australia to contribute $1100 into a fund for female entrepreneurs. The women who contribute that money are called Activators, so you’re activating your buying power, your capital, and your network. It’s not just writing a cheque and walking away, you’re actually engaged with the process. As an Activator you get to select which five ventures will receive this 0% interest 5-year loan. It’s a perpetual loan that, once paid back, can be loaned out again and again. And it’s creating this perpetual flow of capital to women, from women, who really believe in the products that are being created; that believe in the founders themselves. Most of the companies that are chosen offer some sort of product or service that will make the world a better place, and that’s a big focus. What it really creates is this ask/give network, so that activators who participate in this fund can ask one another for help as well.

There are [also] a lot of other wonderful initiatives helping and supporting women entrepreneurs, and we’re here to work with them. I’ve already had conversations with Scale Investors, with Head Over Heels, with SheStarts. You know, this is not about us doing another competitive thing, this is about all of us playing together.

WID: What do you love most about what you do?

JT: So, the first response that came into my head—and it’s the reason why I did go into teaching—was that aha! moment. Sharing a moment with someone where they learned, or where they failed, and learned from that failure, so that they knew how to do it differently, or knew how to do it awesomely next time. The other thing that I love doing is connecting the right people with one another. I don’t know everything about everything, but what I do know is how to find the right people for the job at hand, and to help them connect and help one another.

WID: What piece of advice would you give to a woman who aspires to work in the digital realm?

JT: There are so many resources out there. But if there is something that you believe in, do it. I remember when I first started working as a technology specialist at a middle school, I had no formal technical training, and yet I was fixing and maintaining the computer networks of the school. I was literally doing things like pulling out the motherboard of the computer, smacking it with my palm, and putting it back in, and sometimes that would work. But I would also go to sleep thinking about some of the problems I had encountered with computers, and I could literally feel the synapses forming in my head trying to solve for the issue, and I was learning. The reason I am telling that story is, getting into digital, or getting into technology, if you’re eager to learn about it, as soon you start to learn you can feel that growth almost immediately.

WID: So it’s really one of those industries where you learn so much by doing, and by being involved?

JT: Yes, exactly. And  yet, there’s that whole imposter syndrome, I get it, I have it everyday. I have that voice in my head, too, and I’ve named her, her name is Beatrice. She’s getting a lot of play lately because I’ve been talking about her a lot, so hopefully that’s enough to get her to sit down and to just let her do her own thing and stop bothering me. And then you move on, and you ask questions again. It’s about being confident and doing what you believe you can do.

WID: You describe yourself as an avid technology junkie. So we have to ask; what’s one app you can’t live without?

JT: Any kind of a text (based) app, that kind of a communication tool. Whether it’s WhatsApp or text. So I can communicate to people that I wouldn’t be able to otherwise, so I have one network on Telegram, and I’m on WhatsApp, and on text.

Check out more of our Q&A’s over on our blog!